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  • #4250
    patcamblin
    Participant

    hey there fellow boaters…
    just in from an 8th consecutive day of incredible conditions out on bussy…
    thought i’d see what was going on in the wonderful world of cyberspace and stumbled across that long thread about boaters without pfd’s or helmets on bussy…

    the issue here is real risk versus perceived risk…
    we have been boating this wave for a long long time, we know what we are doing and we aren’t putting ourselves or others in danger.

    this is not a technical section of class 5, hell its not even a bony section of class 2… this is a deep wave with a lake behind it – the water is warm right now and we have our own group watching out for us…

    there is a real need for safety gear in kayaking, water is an unforgiving medium and, especially when rocks are involved, bad things do happen… just take into consideration that we aren’t running rapids like this, we are competent boaters surfing a wave with nothing dangerous downstream.

    try to understand the real dangers presented in this situation and then compare them to what people are doing daily in every other sport… this isn’t a big deal.

    just because you wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean it isn’t safe…

    peace and respect.
    patrick

    #27917
    zack splaine
    Participant

    hey pat,,
    i thot the same thing,, you are an AMAZING paddler and i seen you out there with out your gear but i thot the same thing,, there is nuthin downstream to worry about and you have been on bussy for how many years???,, anyway hope to see you out there in the next couple days as i am a local 582 paddler

    #27918
    The Great Gonzo
    Participant
    "patcamblin":3suv9xo8 wrote:
    hey there fellow boaters…
    just in from an 8th consecutive day of incredible conditions out on bussy…
    thought i’d see what was going on in the wonderful world of cyberspace and stumbled across that long thread about boaters without pfd’s or helmets on bussy…

    the issue here is real risk versus perceived risk…
    we have been boating this wave for a long long time, we know what we are doing and we aren’t putting ourselves or others in danger.

    this is not a technical section of class 5, hell its not even a bony section of class 2… this is a deep wave with a lake behind it – the water is warm right now and we have our own group watching out for us…

    there is a real need for safety gear in kayaking, water is an unforgiving medium and, especially when rocks are involved, bad things do happen… just take into consideration that we aren’t running rapids like this, we are competent boaters surfing a wave with nothing dangerous downstream.

    try to understand the real dangers presented in this situation and then compare them to what people are doing daily in every other sport… this isn’t a big deal.

    just because you wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean it isn’t safe…

    peace and respect.
    patrick[/quote:3suv9xo8]

    No, in my opinion the issue is the example you guys as proboaters are setting.
    Already some young kids come to your defense and think that not w=earing lifejackets and helmets are acceptable when surfing a wave like buseater.
    Or some rafters, who have no idea about the risks involved in whitewater, may see you there and think that all that safety gear is not necessary.

    If you want to be pro’s, please also act professionally on the river, at least as far as safetty is concerned.

    TGG!

    #27919
    Meriel
    Participant

    I’ve been reading these posts and felt I would add my two cents. I come from the ‘new paddler’ perspective. I had completed my 2nd day of lessons with Liquid Skills and asked my instructor to take me to Buseater ( thanks Tyler!), I had heard alot about it and wanted to check it out. I saw the paddler without safety gear- I’m old enough that I wouldn’t be influenced to paddle like that but, I was sure glad I didn’t have my 10 yr old son with me. He’s starting lessons on saturday and I would hate for him to get the idea that safety gear is for the ‘mature’ set such as his mum, but if he got good enough he could paddle with out it.
    He would also be highly influenced by the ‘teen- young adult’ kayakers on the river. There is always someone looking up to you ( no pressure though)
    I know for certain a group of grade 7-8 students went down buseater on a raft on wednesday, They were hugely impressed by the river and the kayakers. None of them had ever seen white water kayaking before, so it just follows that if they saw the paddler with out gear then that would be one of their first impressions of what kayakers do.

    #27920
    peterborough crew
    Participant

    Again who cares if the paddlers there want to paddle with out PFD’s as responsible parents/instructors you would have to inform the people/beginners learning to kayak that paddling with out a PFD is not recommended. The Guys paddling with out the PFDs have to ask them selves what they gain form it. Is it worth having some people look at you sideways because you aren’t following the norm. Some people I am sure could care less, where others may have an image they want to keep/or protect (E.J. family orientated kayak company, appealing to kids) all the way to Young Guns (20-somethings with nothing to lose and pushing the limits) Everyone paddles for different reasons, you can’t get mad at because someone paddles for different reasons then your own.

    #27921
    Phitty
    Participant

    By the same reasoning you dont need lifejackets when waterskiing, jetskiing or motorboating. What can go wrong really – Ive been doing it for years?

    There have been plenty of swims at Bussy, plenty of broken paddles, noses, shoulder injuries etc.

    Not really a good attitude to take, but thats your choice.

    #27922
    Kevin M
    Participant

    If we all wanted to be safe, we wouldn’t be kayaking in the first place.

    On one hand they are only putting themselves at risk.

    On the other hand they are pro boaters who wish to represent the sport.

    How do you represent the sport when you are breaking the law?

    Peterborough’s crew suggesting that parents have to teach their kids to wear the gear is true. However, who do you think kids like Zack will listen to their parents or pro boaters? He is probably hanging out with those guys listening to their stories about being boater bums and can’t wait to drop school and join them. If he thinks bigger risks will get him noticed or accepted then you know what he is going to do. Tell me Zack, who has more pull with you, pro boaters or your parents? At the moment my kids are young enough that I still have some influence. Laughing at bikers and kayakers who don’t wear helmets and saying "They obviously have nothing to lose" is our way of fighting back and keeping our kids safer. If we as parents have to make pro boaters look stupid in order to have kids respect them less then so be it. I’m up to the task.

    I think in most of these thrill sports people need to realize the risks and take reasonable precautions to avoid a stupid injury. Getting a boat, paddle or rock in the back of the head could cause brain damage. Is it likely maybe not. Will it give the sport a black eye if a proboater ends up in a wheel chair eating jello for the rest of his life because he wasn’t wearing a basic piece of safety gear? I’m thinking yes. We all have to do our part to protect our sport. Right now this sport is still on the fringes. It flies under the radar and has very little regulations. If we start filling up the emergency rooms then that will change. Health taxes on equipment, mandatory testing, enforcement or whatever would change our sport for the worse.

    How many people ended up with serious enough head injuries to ruin their lives while doing something as simple as riding a bike? I don’t think I have needed a bike helmet ever, I doubt that is has a scratch on it. One of the reasons I wear it is because statistically, if I do my kids are twice as likely to. It paid off last year, my son took a tumble and smash his helmet into pieces. One night of headache was all that he got in return. Without the helmet life would have suddenly sucked for our whole family. Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts, Freinds, everyone would have shared that pain of that one fall. Compare that to my kayak helmet which is a different story. Lots of scratches and gouges over the years.

    Your life, your choice is a novel idea that may hold true in the excited states but who is covering the cost of taking care of your sorry ass if you do get injured? People are in wheelchairs from falls in their homes so it can happen anywhere but you wouldn’t feel too sorry for someone who greased their staircase because it made the trip to the basement more exciting. Is it really worth the extra thrill or tan to rish putting your family through that crap that would follow?

    Some of the misfits in society like mental patients, street people and welfare patients were normal until an unlucky head injury. One good hit and an untreated concussion changed their personality enough that they are unemployable. Either they are too angry or have short term memory problems or they can’t even make change at a fast food joint.
    Something like the Peterborough crew at a Kayak festival. Sure it’s fun to watch for a little while but long term can be a problem.

    Anyway, make your own choices but try to remember that consequences are not yours alone.

    #27923
    peterborough crew
    Participant

    I don’t remember what we were talking about ………………………….did you want fries with that wine.

    #27924
    harris
    Participant
    "Kevin M":2v6q4m7o wrote:
    but you wouldn’t feel too sorry for someone who greased their staircase because it made the trip to the basement more exciting.[/quote:2v6q4m7o]

    :lol: :lol:

    #27925
    Peter Karwacki
    Participant

    Pounding Waves, Crashing Surf, rocky shoreline, dangerous rip currents: Bussy? no, California big sur and they don’t wear life jackets or helmets either.

    I think the wisdom of going without is easily controverted but hell, nobody lives forever.

    I think for too long a time we’ve been sucked into the safety vacuum. Life is for living and for dying with much content thrown in between. If the passion has thrown these into the breach without safety gear let’s hope their risk assessment has been thorough.

    As for examples set, its not a bad one, but this more complicated message rarely is what some 11 year old would understand so I think the rule is, if the pros are going to do it, it should be before a mature audience.

    I wanted to raise the issue of liability and risk of near death or profound injury of some sort.

    In Winnipeg, at the Heritage River’s conference I visited the forks (the area where the red meets the assinaboa). There, the city has built a world class skateboard park, with half pipes, grinder stairs, you name it, they have it and it really is a broken neck waiting to happen. The guys using it tackle it with aplomb, helmet and padless. Its the wild west all over again, let me tell you.

    And all the while, not a sign, not a fence, nothing: a total free for all meaning: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

    There is a lesson there.

    Pete

    #27926
    joat
    Participant

    Maybe I am just slow, Pete, but was that pro or con basic safety concerns and logical equipment? Or a statement of indifference?

    Mike

    "Peter Karwacki":crmhokhf wrote:
    Pounding Waves, Crashing Surf, rocky shoreline, dangerous rip currents: Bussy? no, California big sur and they don’t wear life jackets or helmets either.

    I think the wisdom of going without is easily controverted but hell, nobody lives forever.

    I think for too long a time we’ve been sucked into the safety vacuum. Life is for living and for dying with much content thrown in between. If the passion has thrown these into the breach without safety gear let’s hope their risk assessment has been thorough.

    As for examples set, its not a bad one, but this more complicated message rarely is what some 11 year old would understand so I think the rule is, if the pros are going to do it, it should be before a mature audience.

    I wanted to raise the issue of liability and risk of near death or profound injury of some sort.

    In Winnipeg, at the Heritage River’s conference I visited the forks (the area where the red meets the assinaboa). There, the city has built a world class skateboard park, with half pipes, grinder stairs, you name it, they have it and it really is a broken neck waiting to happen. The guys using it tackle it with aplomb, helmet and padless. Its the wild west all over again, let me tell you.

    And all the while, not a sign, not a fence, nothing: a total free for all meaning: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

    There is a lesson there.

    Pete[/quote:crmhokhf]

    #27927
    jettaman
    Participant

    If porn stars wear condoms these days, i think kayakers shoud be wearing protective device too !!

    #27928
    Kevin M
    Participant

    Their parent should have worn condoms.

    #27929
    Hipnazi
    Participant

    This is an excellent example of how this sport has an image issue that holds it back from larger public awareness and acceptance.

    First I want to say that personally I have given up on trying to justify or dispute the wearing of helmets etc. Thats choice, individual, and falls under the heading of, "you can’t legislate common sense"!

    From another point of view that recently came up in different thread here I see this as an industry maturity issue. It is one among many.

    It surprises me that manufacturers who sponsor this sport don’t flat out refuse to accept this sort of representation from the folks who they employ.

    It is the equivalent of selling your pro boats without ever paddling them, the equivalent of manufacturers doing parking lot deals circumventing thier dealers, it’s like setting up an ad campaign that scares as many people away as it attracts.

    Whitewater is slowly "growing up", heading towards a time when this would be obviously outside of the professional realm. So long as sponsored paddlers and manufacturers alike continue to promote and practice behaviour that alienates the non initiated the paychecks will stay small.

    So drop your safety gear if you like, sell you gear out the back door if you like but don’t complain that the sport is to small to make a living in. Don’t complain that you would prefer not to have to work flipping burgers in order to support your "profession".

    #27930
    Peter Karwacki
    Participant

    I think I am staunchly pro safety. My sense of perspective says, if anything can happen… it will, and if two things could happen, the one that will do the most damage will occur first.

    but there are those, that will live forever…. in their own minds, and have a rather cavalier view of the value of life.

    I’d take that life and put it to good use, making this a better planet if they’d let me.

    Not indifferent then, but possibly helpless. Maybe I like the live and let live motto, though in our society, red still means "stop".

    ‘course, people still run red lights so there you go.

    Put it this way, I wish they’d wear helmets, but I’d staunchly defend their right not to wear it if they so chose, as long as they had good insurance, which I also don’t support, though as long as it paid for their funeral, not at public expense, I’d go along…. blah, blah, blah.

    No simple answers here.

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