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Looks like no or limited paddling for me this season.

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  • #691
    cmnypny
    Participant

    Greetings to all my fellow paddlers.

    As some of you know, I injured my shoulder on the weekend of the Gull River OC Race due to being upside down in my kayak and hitting a big ass rock on the back of my right shoulder blade.

    I just received the results of my MRI I had last week.

    It looks like I have a tear in posterior-inferior labrum. [b:1msupk0t]This means surgery[/b:1msupk0t].

    My bicep muscles, rotator cuff, etc are fine.

    I am not sure if I will be paddling this summer. :cry:

    Looks like I will get to volunteer at Palmerfest , GullFest, and the Gull River OC races this year. Volunteering is better than sitting around on my ass and feeling sorry for myself. At least I will get to see my friends (at least I think I have friends).

    SYOTR sometime later <img loading=:” title=”Question” />

    Colin

    #14669
    Tyler Durden
    Participant

    life gives you lemons…..I detect a little whining in your post…..why don’t you pick up another sport until your shoulder is better and look at this as an opportunity? When I broke my 5th meta carpal head (aka 5th knuckle) I went back to kick-boxing (just on the bag obviously) for the summer. This allowed me to perfect every single one of my kicks….I was actually thankful for the opportunity in the end.

    On another note….are you certain surgery is the answer?? Is this what your doctor told you? I would go for at least one other opinion, or at least look at other less invasive options…..have you talked to a physiotherapist? Massage Therapist? Both can give you strengthening programs for the rotator cuff muscles which play a large role in holding the humerus in the glenohumeral joint.

    #14670
    cmnypny
    Participant

    I will most likely go back to flat water canoeing for the summer or seakaying. I have to stay above water line.

    My physiotherapist said that would most likely be ok. I have been doing physio since late october. I have full rotation back from where I could not move before. I have also been doing various strengthening exercises as well.

    Colin[/list]

    #14671
    Val
    Participant

    I’m thinking you’re just looking for sympathy, but since I’m paddling with a separated shoulder you’re not getting any from me, so suck it up! :lol: I figure we should start meeting up again in Washago by the end of the month. Hope you’re able to paddle with us, even if it is in your canoe.

    #14672
    Bobbie
    Participant

    To the best of my knowledge, if something is completely torn (regardless of what it is), you need surgery. If there’s a little tiny piece hanging on, it may regrow to 100% if you treat it properly. Once completely torn, muscles/tendons do not reattach on their own, except maybe in exceptional circumstances.

    The normal exception to this is if you’re ok never having that muscle/tendon working again… Lots of people have no ACL in their knee, but they ski, bike, run, with a fitted sports brace.

    ~R

    #14673
    Tyler Durden
    Participant
    "Bobbie":1w15anxf wrote:
    To the best of my knowledge, if something is completely torn (regardless of what it is), you need surgery. If there’s a little tiny piece hanging on, it may regrow to 100% if you treat it properly. Once completely torn, muscles/tendons do not reattach on their own, except maybe in exceptional circumstances.

    The normal exception to this is if you’re ok never having that muscle/tendon working again… Lots of people have no ACL in their knee, but they ski, bike, run, with a fitted sports brace.

    ~R[/quote:1w15anxf]

    Hey Bobbie, I agree with your statment about “if something is completely torn, you usually need surgery”. Moreover, I also agree with your statement about the ACL and people using braces. This is in line with my original statement that there are alternatives to pursuing surgery. Not enough people explore less invasive options first. Less even research less invasive surgery options once surgery is chosen…bottom line is I don’t trust doctors 100% in their diagnosis’ (even though I still respect the profession immensely). They are human and subject to making the same mistakes (or short cuts) that every person in the world does on a daily basis. I speak from personal & professional experience. If you go to a second mechanic for another opinion on a major repair for your car, why not do the same with your own body?

    However, your statment about “if there is a little tiny piece hanging on, it may grow to 100%” is incorrect. If any tissue (especially “soft tissues”, bone being sometimes an exception) in the human body expeirences major trauma there will [b:1w15anxf]never[/b:1w15anxf] be 100% recovery. This is because trauma = inflammation = scar tissue = decreased structural integrity [b:1w15anxf]forever[/b:1w15anxf]. However, this does not mean that surgery is still always the answer. This is especially true when it comes to the GH joint (shoulder) because the rotator cuff muscles play such an important role in keeping the joint together (unique because ligaments usually do this job for the most part in other joints).

    On a less signficant note, it should also be mentioned that with Collin’s injury he referred to his “labrum” which is [b:1w15anxf]neither[/b:1w15anxf] a muscular, tendinous or ligamentous tissue (i.e. “ACL”), it is [b:1w15anxf]fibrocartilagenous[/b:1w15anxf]. This is especially noteworthy because cartilage is less vascularized (actually none) than the above structures; this means more healing time if it can heal at all on “it’s own”.

    He did not mention how severe his “tear” was so in keeping with my conservative opinions on surgery, I still think less invasive options should be explored first. Or, at the very minimum do his [b:1w15anxf]own research[/b:1w15anxf] and obtain a [b:1w15anxf]second opinion [/b:1w15anxf] regarding surgery.

    In the end, I hope that Collin does his homework on this because even though surgery may “solve” the problem in the short term it’s what the [b:1w15anxf]consequences of surgery in the medium & long term [/b:1w15anxf]that should also be considered. Post instability after surgery is a real risk and I would be asking a lot of qualifying questions like what the success rate of the proposed surgery is and the surgeon themself. Don’t forget, [b:1w15anxf]arthritis[/b:1w15anxf] is a real risk for any major surgery down the road as well.

    #14674
    Anonymous
    Participant

    BOO HOO!! Suck it up butter cup!

    #14675
    Bobbie
    Participant

    Tyler,

    You obviously know your stuff when it comes to health and anatomy…

    However, I’ve had several partial tears that are stonger now than they were before the tear. They’ve included my left hamstring (biceps femoris), and right quadricep (rectus femoris), one from climbing, and the other from rugby.

    Granted, I still get some stiffness from the scar tissue, especially in the hamstring….

    I’ve heard of people building stability to where it’s better than before an injury when it comes to ACL, MCL, etc, too!

    I haven’t the foggiest idea what the labrum is… My anatomy ain’t that good <img loading=” title=”Confused” />

    But I think people can be more than 100% better after an injury if they put their mind to it (including full tears reconnected through surgery). It just depends on what 100% was :wink:

    ~R

    #14676
    Jenny Right-Side
    Participant
    "Bobbie":rt2m05yj wrote:
    But I think people can be more than 100% better after an injury if they put their mind to it (including full tears reconnected through surgery).
    ~R[/quote:rt2m05yj]

    If they put their mind to it?
    Can you please tell me how much thinking I have to do to recover from knee surgery? It’s been a year, I’ve done all the physio exercises and I still can’t run more than 6 steps before I feel sharp pain in my knee.
    If you have some insight, please pass it along!
    Jen

    #14677
    Tyler Durden
    Participant
    "Bobbie":1du3s9o6 wrote:
    Tyler,

    You obviously know your stuff when it comes to health and anatomy…

    However, I’ve had several partial tears that are stonger now than they were before the tear. They’ve included my left hamstring (biceps femoris), and right quadricep (rectus femoris), one from climbing, and the other from rugby.

    Granted, I still get some stiffness from the scar tissue, especially in the hamstring….

    I’ve heard of people building stability to where it’s better than before an injury when it comes to ACL, MCL, etc, too!

    I haven’t the foggiest idea what the labrum is… My anatomy ain’t that good <img loading=” title=”Confused” />

    But I think people can be more than 100% better after an injury if they put their mind to it (including full tears reconnected through surgery). It just depends on what 100% was :wink:

    ~R[/quote:1du3s9o6]

    **Disclaimer**, just in case some of you are thinking I’m going into to much detail on this please note that I am in school studying this stuff and actually have exams to write regarding this material. This is great review for myself.

    Bobbie,

    I partially agree on the “building stability” statement but it’s more complicated than what you might think. I am going to surmise that when you say “stability” you mean strengthening the muscles that surround the joint. Yes, you can build “more” stability in a joint through strengthening the muscles that cross that joint. This is especially true when the muscles in the first place were weak or “overworked” which is the case with most weekend warriors. Most people out there, are not “proactive” in their approach to sport (i.e. weekend warriors that kayak and also go the gym to train their rotator cuff muscles to prevent injury), they are reactive and pursue remedial exercise (improve the joint’s stability) once they have injured it up because they either A. subjected their joints to excessive wear and tear or B. experienced some kind of trauma (like Collin) or C. some other pathology became involved outside of their control (e.g. arthritis which actually might be a result of their own doing too). Something to keep in mind is that in addition to moving the bones, muscles also act as “shock absorbers” for the joints. In this day and age of sport, competition and plain old border line “obsessive compulsive behavior” people place enormous, specialized demands on the body for extended periods of time (for which it was not designed to do). At some point, something usually gives (e.g. your hamstring tear)…. especially if people do not properly rest or pro-actively train (which means weight training + proper stretching + “movement” training). So, to summarize, yes you can build “stability” with muscle training but guess what happens when those muscles are “overworked” and become fatigued? The good ol’ ligaments (ACL for example) that kick in to help prevent “excessive” movement start doing there job but since they are compromised (because of previous injury and the resultant scar tissue, more on this next paragraph), they are MORE prone to re-injury than before (unless the person is wearing some kind of supportive brace).

    Regarding your statement “I’ve had several partial tears that are stronger now than they were before the tear”, please read the next sentence carefully. This is totally incorrect and a complete [b:1du3s9o6]fallacy[/b:1du3s9o6], you are subjecting yourself to [b:1du3s9o6]re-injury [/b:1du3s9o6]by believing this. Do some research and you will find muscle tissue is not “stronger” after being “torn” (more proper terminology is “strain” in case you decide to look this up). In fact, after inflammation and the healing process has resolved, the resultant scar tissue in that area is [b:1du3s9o6]weaker[/b:1du3s9o6] than the tissue it has replaced (btw…this applies not only to muscle but also tendons & ligaments). [b:1du3s9o6]If you are lucky[/b:1du3s9o6], it will reach 80% of the “strength” of the original muscular/contractile tissue. Moreover, scar tissue is a lot [b:1du3s9o6]less extensible/elastic [/b:1du3s9o6]than muscular tissue. Your false sense of “stronger” tissue is probably in my guess a result of the [b:1du3s9o6]decreased range of motion [/b:1du3s9o6] in the joints and/or resistance to certain actions associated with those muscles with scar tissue (for example, you may experience more resistance now when you go to do the classic “toe touch” stretch for your biceps femoris aka hams??? Or perhaps during sprinting, you may feel “resistance” in your hamstrings or quads and interpreting this as “strength”. I’m curious, so please let me know what your signs/symptoms are.

    All is not lost though, scar tissue can be manipulated by experienced professionals (for example massage therapists) if it is indeed limiting your ROM (range of motion) in a joint….it is not a fun or enjoyable experience though, in fact it is usually painful. However, scar tissue can be manipulated so that it’s extensibility is increased. Even functional strength might be able to be improved with certain sophisticated, “hands on” techniques that require no specialized tools or surgery. Be aware though that not much empirical evidence has been done in this regard (or much at all with true “clinical” massage therapy) but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to back it up. I also speak from professional & personal experience in this regard.

    #14678
    Bobbie
    Participant

    Ok Jenny,

    You sound like you’re expressing frustration and sarcasm… Here’s a story that will give you some indication of what I’m talking about re. ‘putting your mind to it’…

    In 2002, after my last rugby season, and shortly after an unbelievable car crash (ask anyone who worked/went to MKC in 2002… I nearly landed the car in the Madawaska River… $24,000 car, $22,000 damage; insurance estimate), I developed a debilitating shoulder pain… I literally could not put my hand behind my back, or even touch my chest, without serious pain.

    Turns out I had osteolysis of the distal clavicle, but that took me over a year, and at least 10 different sports therapists/doctors to figure out. I’ll try to make a long story short by giving you a list of people I saw for treatment/assesment:

    1. Dr. Steve Gawron (a sports doctor who has worked with Gryphon rugby & several team Canada players)

    2. Dr. David Levy (David Levy, (HR) BA, MD, CCFP, FCFP, DOHS, Dip Sport Med
    Associate Clinical Professor
    Department of Family Medicine
    McMaster University
    Director, Primary Care Sport Medicine Clinic
    McMaster University Medical Centre
    Mohawk College and McMaster University Varsity Clinic
    Medical Director, Hamilton TigerCat Football Team and
    Toronto Rock Lacrosse Team
    Hamilton, Ontario )

    3. Joseph Pelino BSc DC DACBSP (Chiropractor. Soft Tissue Institute, Toronto)

    4. Cheryl Richardson (Physiotherapist. CBI, Toronto)

    5. Charlotte Savella (Physiotherapist. Adleaide Health Clinic, Toronto)

    6. Dr. John Ho MD Dip Sport Med (Adleaide Health Clinic, Toronto)

    7. Brek Harris RMT Osteopathic Practitioner (Wellington Chiropractic, Guelph)

    8. David Lee (Chiropractor, Adelaide Health Clinic, Toronto)

    9. A student of Dr. Chan Gunn (for ‘dry-needling’ acupuncture, in B.C., can’t remember her name)

    That’s only a partial list!

    In the end it took two and a half years, 100’s of hours of rehab exercises, a list of massage therapists that I won’t even begin to try to type out, and tens of $1000’s from my car insurance company, OHIP, and personal cash. I had one MRI, two sets of X-rays, one cortisone injection, and one series of nerve testing…..

    My right shoulder is now stronger than it has ever been. I can shoulder press 70lb dumbells for 5 reps, climb 5.11 lead, and I kayak as often as work will allow. Less than three years ago my clavicle was riddled with stress fractures, and it was literally being eaten by my body.

    That’s one of the many serious sports/accident injuries I have suffered. I’ve had three others that were just as serious, but that one was the hardest to fix (it’s still unknown whether the osteolysis was from rugby tackling, or the car crash)… All of them are now 110% from where they were.

    So, it is possible…

    Tyler,

    My Hamstring is stronger, end of story… I can heel hook on V5 bouldering problems like never before… I can straight-leg deadlift 225lbs for 8 reps. My range of motion has been increased through Yoga. I can still feel the indentation in the Hamstring where it was torn, nonetheless, it works better than ever! Perhaps other muscles are compensating… All I know is that it works better now, and I was straight leg deadlifting 185lbs beforehand, so I wasn’t weak… Isolation exercises are stonger too (open chain hamstring curls). I reach a few inches further past my toes in stretch tests. All practical measurements of strength and flexibility say my hamstring is better now than it was before it was strained/torn (bad enough that you could feel a substantial indentation running a hand along my leg). I can’t explain it, it’s just true.

    #14679
    Tyler Durden
    Participant

    Answer this question, provided you did all that training/rehab/yoga up to this point and had the choice to eliminate from history all your injuries, would you choose to do so? Let me answer this for you while you ponder…“of courseâ€

    #14680
    Bobbie
    Participant

    Tyler,

    A lot of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view.
    (I have to credit Obi-Wan with that statement.)

    While it is true that my body will likely feel like it’s snapping and exploding into a thousand pieces sometime in my fifties or sixties, I will survive with pain, and some great memories….. I will be in a better state of mental health, and I will know that I have lived well.

    I’m happy to trade my long-term pain levels for all the fun I’m having. Especially since modern, traditional, and alternative medecine is improving every day.

    My pain (arthritis, etc) will likely be just that, pain… I expect I’ll still be able to pursue an active lifestyle with some effort. Moreover, I doubt if my history of injuries will affect my internal organs.

    Moreover, I think being active and having fun with cool sports is good for one’s health! The only thing better would be if you’re one of those swimming/yoga/eating super-healthy/low-impact/low caloric-intake/obsessed with longevity people, but that really doesn’t sound like a fun life to me (unless your real pursuit is buddhist meditation, or something like that) <img loading=” title=”Confused” />

    Lastly, if these injuries had never happened, I may never have gone to the trouble to build up the joints, muscles, and surrounding muscles to where they are now… I may actually be better at my various sports because of my injuries! Honestly, I don’t regret a thing. (If I could take away the scar tissue, but keep the gains from rehab/yoga/strengthening of course I would, but that’s obvious.)

    #14681
    Done Swimmin
    Participant

    Hey Colin

    Sucks! I look forward to seeing you at the events you mentioned. Keep your head up!

    pete

    #14682
    Tyler Durden
    Participant

    Hey Bobbie,

    My perception stands on a greater body of information that is for the most part shared by most “rehabilitation” professionals. 80% of the information I presented here was gleamed from textbooks and 20% from my own experience treating people.

    On the other hand, 100% of your opinions are based on your own individual
    experience with rehabilitation and 0% on formal training or “care giver” experience.

    Sorry to disappoint, but I’m not going to follow you down this new path and debate the merits of your own personal belief system, because that would be folly and too personal. My goal from the beginning was to present objective information. I did not make any of this stuff up.

    Honestly, I’m glad you have such strong beliefs (not enough people do in this world)…..I share them, just to a lesser extent. Moreover, I’m glad you don’t “regret a thingâ€

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